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  1. #11
    Senior Member Gettin'onabit's Avatar
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    I have Straightshot slip-ons; probably standard air filter; no FuelPak and the only thing that occurs with running is the popping on over-run before it has fully warmed up - it does it occasionally once hot. Plugs seem OK and within colour range albeit slightly on the light side. Is the 883 less prone to fuelling issues?

  2. #12
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    I have a 2017 XL1200 and with stock pipes so that I could hear what was going on I could tell almost immediately the engine was tuned lean.

    I was assured that it would not harm the engine but I just hated the raspy noise a lean engine makes.

    I purchased a V & H FP3 because it is a re mapping tuner and doesn't have to stay on the bike once it has done its job and V&H supply a map for a stock bike.

    Once I had applied the remap the engine note was mellow and the bike sounded real happy. It also pulled better at low rpms, essential when driving in towns.

    Moving on I have changed the pipes and air cleaner and once again used the tuner to remap the ECU for the parts fitted.

    I ride with a lot of people who have just changed the pipes for the noise thing without doing anything else. Now I haven't heard much from any of them that their bikes run rough. Maybe they just don't know or their bikes are running fine for their style of riding.
    Last edited by Andy from Sandy; 05-25-2018 at 07:11 PM.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckhornBud View Post
    ... You could get it sorted by some dyno time but as the stock eprom requires a fuel map to tune it, you need a method by which you do this. There's no plug and play unless you go the electronic tuner route (fuelpak etc etc) and no really satisfactory way to iron it all out properly except with dyno time... [So] you need to find a local (ish) company that does and that has worked with bikes to do this. Power Commander tuners are the best option as they use a greater number of tuning points and they are dedicated to use with Dynojet Dynamometers. You can use any tuner but most dyno specialists will already be set up with the software to run Power Commanders.

    The issue is that the air cooled motor is getting long in the tooth in terms of its ability to comply with latest Euro emissions regs so the only way they do it is by a combination of adding a restrictive CAT and running the bike quite lean, right in the very spot you don't want it lean... The cheapest (proper) solution is the SE Street Tuner for a few hundred quid plus an hours dyno time. It'll sort your bike, keep it standard and eliminate the flat spot by running the bike richer there (and cooler).

    The good thing about a supertuner pro etc is that once you have a map and some dyno time for the standard set up, it's not that much trouble to spend another 30 mins dyno time if you decide on louder pipes or faster airflow. There's no insurance premium to pay either (at least not in my case).

    When you buy a standard Harley, I reckon most need to budget around £400 extra for a tuner and dyno time or £1000 for pipes, air filter, tuner and dyno time.. To be fair to H-D, they have no choice but to comply with emissions regs and the true cost of buying a Sportster will be ticket price plus a grand if you want a stage 1 bike, or ticket price plus several hundred for one that fuels satisfactorily wrt satisfactory riding.

    Their newer models are all designed from the ground up with current emissions regs in mind so run well as standard (M8 engines). The Evo was designed when standards were not as strict... Oh....Andy is right about the cables. I have a set myself so if you need dyno time I am willing to lend them to you should you go the Harley tuner route.
    Once again Bud, you're post is priceless, thank you. Your explanation(s) help me understand and, whilst they do not mend my broken heart, they certainly help! (I never even thought about the venerable old engine design, but it figures.) Interestingly (and only slighty out of context), when I sold my VX800, I told the nice chap who bought it that I was sick of the carbs because the bike had been unused for the year before I bought it. It cost me loads to get the carbs cleaned, and then it wasn't done well enough. The chap stunned me by saying that wanted carbs again and that he had sold his (Bandit?) because he was fed-up with fuel injection! I didn't understand why he said that at the time, but now...

    Since cash is king, I'd like to get my bike sorted for full-on cheapness. (How ironic that you say 'the Harley route' is the cheapest!) If I went with the 'Street Tuner/dyno time', would that tune the bike to run properly at all revs? (Is it roughly the equivalent of getting bigger jets & K&N's, or something? I ask because that would also kill the fuel economy.) If I could keep the stock exhaust (even if I had to change the air filter), it might be affordable - and it would need to be kept that way for a couple of years at least.

    Anyway Bud - I am a middle aged man and I really need a pee!

    Later Dude! (And thanks again.)

    Chris

  4. #14
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    You have to sympathise with Harley and I'm by no means a Harley fanboy but like Bud has said, the air cooled V twin, especially the Sportster Evolution engine has to run very lean to get through emissions tests and it is rumoured that it will be the end of the Sportster in the not too distant future. Water cooled, EFI is the way forward but the Harley community don't seem to like that, Vrod anyone?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckhornBud View Post
    Oh....Andy is right about the cables. I have a set myself so if you need dyno time I am willing to lend them to you should you go the Harley tuner route.
    That is extremely generous of you Bud, thank you.

    Reading Andy's post again (thanks Andy!), wouldn't 'the Harley route' still require a dyno session? (Would it be even possible to dyno a dealer's tuning? Or cost effective?) I've got loads of Googling ahead me with this - and I haven't even seen F1 qualifying yet!

    Cheers chaps - I greatly appreciate your help here.

    Thanks again,

    Chris

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckhornBud View Post
    You could get it sorted by some dyno time but as the stock eprom requires a fuel map to tune it, you need a method by which you do this. There's no plug and play unless you go the electronic tuner route (fuelpak etc etc) and no really satisfactory way to iron it all out properly except with dyno time. Whilst you could go to Riders, buy an FP3 and have them fit it and do a generic tune on your bike, you wont be able to do it satisfactorily without dyno time and Riders don't have a dyno...
    I just Googled it Bud - it seems that Riders do have a dyno, and they 'suggest' your Power Commander gubbins too: Riders Motorcycles Dyno Service. I'll give Harvey a shout, but since a Stage 1 with Short Shots for an Iron was £1433, I may be stuffed.

    Still, at least Bridgwater is nearer than Ledbury. (Back to heavy drinking then...)

    Cheers,

    Chris

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisOfTheOT View Post
    I just Googled it Bud - it seems that Riders do have a dyno, and they 'suggest' your Power Commander gubbins too: Riders Motorcycles Dyno Service. I'll give Harvey a shout, but since a Stage 1 with Short Shots for an Iron was £1433, I may be stuffed.

    Still, at least Bridgwater is nearer than Ledbury. (Back to heavy drinking then...)

    Cheers,

    Chris
    HI Chris

    you learn something new every day! I didn't realise they had a dyno there but that seems ideal for you. A word to the wise RE short shots. They are very popular....they are also very loud and due to being short with relatively open baffles, do not help the engine's low down torque figures that much, instead coming on song higher up the rev range. I would not recommend short shots for your intended use as 1) you'll go deaf (!) and 2) you'll be missing out on the gobfuls of torque that alternatives supply. V&H long shots might be better suited to your needs, Khromewerks would be excellent and SE slash cuts are also good. I went the Knromewerks route because they seemed to offer some of the best power and torque gains for stage 1 bikes (data gained from state-side) and on doing my own, they were not wrong. Low down, the bike has more grunt than a pig fed on beans....

    The best option for both torque and power gains are good 2 into 1 systems. Supertrap possibly making the most popular....expensive though.

  8. #18
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    If you ask me, the first thing one should do when deciding on a new Harley is to purchase the FP3 or the PCV and slip ons and a new K&N intake. In the States it's known as the Harley Tax. And, for quite some time, the dealerships warranteed it and did it for you and tuned it before delivery(and most still do). I know it's not cheap, but as was mentioned before, the EVO motor design is old even by Harley standards, and has to run insanely lean to pass California emissions and perhaps the new EU ones, too. The new dual plug oil-cooled design is likely going to migrate to whatever the next version becomes. It is what it is. You simply are not gonna get that raw Harley experience with an water-cooled engine. In the future, folks will eventually get used to the new M8 wit it's sooth idle and top end grunt. But this guy, who started on an FXR EVO, it's just not the same. I had to put a cam in my Dyna and set my map to idle at 950rpm before I was happy with the idle. I would idle it lower if I trusted the twin cam oiler.

    Having said that, if I were to purchase a new sporty on the cheap, I would at least remove the baffles from the mufflers/silencers and get the tuner. That alone will make a huge difference in the ride and the torque. The FP3 and the PCV have a huge amount of maps available on line. Anyone whom has a puter can store the maps on their puterz. SO there's more options out there than meets the eye.

    Having said that, I have never purchased a new Harley. Even in the UK, you are spoiled for choice in Harleys. Spend a few weeks hunting and probing around and you'll find a used one set up exactly how you want it for a good price. Unlike the US, you have MOT in the UK. And most Harley owners keep all their work receipts form what I saw.

  9. #19
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    Morning gents - many thanks again for all your input.

    Johnny - I hope the Sportster is not destined to go to the big garage in the sky, but it's kind of inevitable in its current guise I suppose. That said, since it's already changed unimaginably in 50 years, it could continue. (Think of Bonnevilles and 911s and televisions!)

    Having made myself dizzy getting to grips with the whole fuel tuning issue, I am focused on Screamin Eagle Pro Tuner & dyno now (at Riders). I want the best tuning available across the whole rev range and a special focus on torque (not power or speed), which it seems can only come from dyno. I also want better millage: Bud can get 55 m.p.g., fairly comfortably! The cost difference of SE v FP3 is not huge - initially just an hour or so of dyno time, about £100 - so it's a choice of not being able to afford £400 or £500. Future upgrades can be catered for with another dyno, which I understand to be quicker and cheaper than the first dyno run. Either way, once I have robbed the bank to get the money, I'll not be doing it again for years so any further engine-related improvements (like exhaust), will wait until 2020ish whatever.

    If I do get new exhuast, I'd like a 2-1 but the cost is horrible (Bud: I looked up Supertrap - very nice indeed - but £900+ delivered? Not likely...) In reality, it'll be slip-ons, air filter and a dyno. Khrome Werks are superb too but, even if I wanted to be a flatulent swine, I can't afford it. (Can get the beans though!) Don't really like Long Shots Bud - but you seem to be saying that longer = torquier. Is that right? (I did see some Screamin Eagle slip-ons for £200 at Swansea H-D. Shame I couldn't afford them...)

    Enjoy your shoot Bud - I hope it's not called off because of the weather.

    Thanks again everyone,

    Cheers,

    Chris

  10. #20
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    Don't really like Long Shots Bud - but you seem to be saying that longer = torquier. Is that right?
    Short shots don't have very much in the way of back pressure Chris as they're modelled on drag pipes and tbh the long shots aren't a good deal better but they are better. They both look cool (I really do like the way they look) and sound awesome which is why most people fit them but I have seen dyno readouts showing that some actually made LESS power and heaps less torque...an engine tuner advised me to steer well clear of them because he didn't rate them at all. However, V&H also make Side-shots and other pipes with their "power chamber" fitted and these do make a fair bit more power and deliver good torque increases.

    I only rode one bike with short shots on and it felt gutless to me compared with the Khromewerks slip ons that I eventually chose. If you want to retain that lazy low down grunt, or improve on standard across the rev range, you have to pick a pipe or slip-on that develops sufficient back pressure yet has better gas flow than the standard one which isn't hard seeing as it has a cat filter in the head of the muffler section (and thankfully not in the header pipe). Short shots won't deliver what you want from your custom Chris as you're after a torquey mile muncher that you don't need to rev much as I understand it?

    I've read that the optimum pipe diameter for the evo 1200 engine is 2 3/4 inch for gas flow/torque and the Khromewerks offer a 3 inch with patented pulse baffle which causes swirl in the chamber and modulates back pressure variably depending on revs and gas flow, tuned for loads of torque from slightly above tickover, rising to almost a peak at 3Krpm and really quite linear all the way up but retaining a linear power increase to the red line. My own dyno results echoed this. I've no doubt that a good full system would be even better but I got mine for a shade over £250 new from Riders in Bridgwater last year when they were selling some off cheap so jumped on them while the jumping was good!
    To get lots of low down grunt and lots of higher up power gains, you need backpressure plus the exhaust still has to be free flowing so it is a designer's compromise. You can read up on things like scavenging, gas flow, back-pressure and there's plenty out there on it.

    If you look on Hammer performance's website they have loads of dyno read-outs showing the effects of different slip ons and full systems used with their kits and that's a useful guide into seeing what those guys are realising at the back wheel through the rev range. I was also privy to some dyno read outs which compared V&H with Screamin eagle slash-cuts, supertrap and Khromewerks set ups. The 2-1 system delivered the best results everywhere across the rev range on the sportsters but as you say, it's very expensive. Next best of this limited range was the Khromewerks slip ons and the worst by a big margin were the short-shots. I was quite shocked by just how different they made the 1200 feel when I rode one fitted with them...loads of noise but that instant low down shove was missing. People don't buy them for performance but for looks.
    Last edited by BuckhornBud; 05-30-2018 at 11:20 AM.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to BuckhornBud For This Useful Post:

    ChrisOfTheOT (05-31-2018)

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